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32 comments:
Readers of this blog might be interested in viewing our latest issue of the Journal of Educational Controversy that addresses the Ruby Payne phenomena. The theme, "The Hidden Dimensions of Poverty: Rethinking Poverty and Education," can be found at: http://dev.wce.wwu.edu/Resources/CEP/eJournal/v004n001/ Our blog will continue the conversation - http://journalofeducationalcontroversy.blogspot.com/ We were just about to put up the YouTube of the 14 year old also.
I am amazed at the vitriol directed at a woman who has spent her life trying to make a difference. One simply cannot argue with her assertions - all you have to do is look around at our world. She sees it (thank God) not from an academic viewpoint, but from a common-sense humanistic viewpoint. Ruby Payne is dead-on accurate in her observations. It's obvious she has not spent her life in pursuit of PhD's but in classrooms, where she actually learned about class, instead of reading about it in academic journals.
She is constantly under fire from the academic community for using anecdotal methods in her work.
Indeed Ruby Payne is very anecdotal, a strategy that has been utilized by several fairly well known and respected teachers over the years - among them: Jesus, Gandhi, Buddha, Mother Teresa - well, you get the point.
As a taxpayer, I am proud to have my tax money go to someone who is spending their life making a difference. It's a shame she has to fight and defend herself from bureaucrats and academic critics to help the rest of us.
When I was a child my Mother taught us that little people talk about people, average people talk about things, & big people talk about ideas. (Notice that Ruby Payne is talking about solving huge problems in our society, and the little people are talking about Ruby Payne)
Mom also taught us that it's not hard to separate the big people from the little people: big people are the people who are doing - taking action. Little people are criticizing them for it.
My mother is proving to be a smart woman.
As to your 14 year old whiz kid - he's typical of many 14 year olds raised with advantages - he knows everything! Why should he listen to a recognized authority who is a successful author and who has spent her life researching a problem? Surely he, with his vast experience in poverty and life, knows better. We should thank him for sharing his vast life experience (and knowledge of poverty) with those of us less enlightened.
Bob: worldwide teacher (22 countries so far)/human being/ student of humanity
Bob... 22 countries. Aren't you special. How does this in any way support your thesis?
There's a very good reason academics have challenged her methodology: generalizability. I could tell you stories, all true, about the worst teachers I've ever had. All of them were women. The best teachers, in contrast, were all men. Therefore, based on my anecdotal "evidence," men are *always* better teachers than women. Based on this, men should be given preferential treatment during hiring season. Right? After all, *MY* anecdotal evidence is accurate. So it applies to you, too.
You'll accept that ridiculous logic, yes?
I'm curious, too, about your unwarranted comparison of Ruby Payne to Jesus, the Buddha, Gandhi (one presumes you mean Mohandas), and Mother Teresa. None of these people ever charged money for their labor and teaching. Ruby Payne, even assuming a 10% royalty on her $23 book - the industry standard is 15% - has, in contrast, netted at least $4,600,000,* not including the thousands of dollars in speaking fees she's gotten. She's made an industry of herself - which in itself is great. I love capitalism and free enterprise - that's based on a flawed premise: that she is THE expert on poverty. That "expertise" is grounded in the so-called logic I illustrated above.
Not that I think she's lying, mind you. I have no doubt that her personal experiences are all as she described them. She's a gifted presenter and compelling storyteller. All her evidence lacks, really, is evidence.
Finally, why are you pooh-poohing PhDs? Ruby Payne has one. So do I. She's worked with kids in poverty. I do the same every day, at a school where 98% of our kids qualify for federal free or reduced lunches and a number of kids show up daily in the same uniform. And I mean they literally wear the same shirt and pants day after day.
Say, maybe I should write a book on poverty. I'm as qualified as she is. More so, even: as a rural public school teacher, I make a hell of a lot less than she does.
*The cover of her book, which I have, claims "millions" of copies sold. Even if we assume only 2 million, that's 2,000,000x$2.30.
It is a great read in getting the better type of information.
I came from poverty.
In the video, the boy talks a lot about "poor people." "Poor people" are people who don't get to go to the movies every week. "Poor people" are folks who have to buy a used car. "Poor people" shop at Wal-Mart for their clothes.
What Ruby Payne discusses is poverty. In my household, as a child, we didn't eat for two or three days at a time. In my house, we walked everywhere we needed to go. My sister and I put on shows for my family for when we didn't have electricity to run the TV. My sister and I got used clothes once a year, at the beginning of school, from whatever church group we could get to donate them to us. We went swimming in the storm sewer because it was the closest thing we had to a pool.
I worked my way through college. Worked, not got grants, and I have been a teacher for five years now. I have no scientific evidence for Ruby Payne's claims, other than I recognize what she's talking about. What she says is true-believe it or not. I think it's repulsive for a middle/upper class (look at those headphones, the carefully applied wallpaper border, the lovely ambient lighting) child to rant for nine minutes about something he could have no concept of, without offering a thesis of his own-until minute eight, when the watcher finally understands that it's Ruby Payne's use of annecdotal evidence that he is having trouble with.
As a society, we have to realize that people ARE different, and as a society, we need to figure out effective ways to interact with one another. Ruby Payne does not advocate changing the ways in which other people think, behave, or believe-but offers a platform for middle-class Americans to understand the needs of impoverished children.
I'm glad she's made that much money. Isn't that the basis of capitalist America? Taking what you know and pulling yourself up by the bootstraps to make a pile of money? Rants against Ruby Payne sound like bunches of sour grapes to me...
I read Ruby Payne's book on, Understanding Poverty. On page 42 of the hidden rules among classes, Ruby Payne classifies people's behavior and choices based on income. I believe there is some truth to it, but she can't possibly apply that to every single individual. Everybody is different.
Ruby Payne's book was taken too heavily by the 14 year old kid in the video. Despite being highly intellectual, he failed to see the value from the perspective of a teacher who works on teaching in a school district demanding middle class values where such a high percentage of our students are Low SES.
Yes I agree that not all of characteristics/ hidden rules apply to every individual.
First of all, the characterization check list was meant to give a frame for mind of things that an individual from the classes may be thinking. It does not mean that because you know how to "use a knife as a scissors" you are poor. And vice versa that just because you are impoverished you "use a knife as a scissors." The checklist is to help you think of differences you may see between the classes and bring those to the front of your mind while reading and reflecting on your needs from the text.
The same goes for the hidden rules. Just because you have a value within one of the classes doesn’t mean that is where you belong. It is a majority selection, but it needs to be taken into consideration that each individual is unique and has a unique blend of values, skills, and resources.
Ruby Payne’s work although highly anecdotal does give a good perspective on the gap between the classes. Her book is encourages a lot of reflection on situations encountered in the classroom, why they may be occurring, and how to work through them. Her book and suggestions are highly beneficial to the classroom educator.
I just finished reading the book A Framework for Understanding poverty. It was a good resource for trying to build relationships with students from various backgrounds. I understand as an educator that students do not just fit into a mold. There are exceptions to every theory. I expect the best from all of my students and in my perfect world I can do this.
It was great to see a video of a student's perception of poverty and the differences among classes.
Well said Bob, and to respond to our 14 year-old, John on You Tube:
No, this is not a book full of research and data. This is one person's professional opinions, ideas, and observations. I appreciate her insight and experiences. I can relate to this and benefit from this when teaching my impoverished students. Whether this is scientific or not does not matter to me. Something needs to be done to help these kids falling through the cracks. Her rules for survival may sound stereotypical to you, but from my own experience they are very realistic. She is not saying that these are NNEDED to survive or you will NOT survive without this knowledge. Rather, she is pointing out the differences in the daily lives of the different classes. She is not saying there is a differing level of intelligence like you have summed up. And why on earth would she say a poor person needs to know how to use a knife like a scissors? I can answer that for you. Many poor people do not have scissors, a tool that you and I take for granted and are sure to have lying in a drawer somewhere. I have had to use a knife like a scissors while working with a poor family in their home. Does that mean I could survive poverty? No, but I can empathize and understand that Payne is giving us examples of how the poor need to be creative with what they have and to use other tools for alternate purposes at times. That helps me understand, as a teacher, why Suzie came to school with pencil scribbled all over her picture, when the directions were to 'color with crayons.' Suzie does not have crayons, so she used her only tool available. Some teachers would say she did not follow directions and would make her stay in for recess to re-do it. By understanding Suzie's situation, I would either send her home with a box of my crayons for this assignment or allow her to turn in her homework as is. Can you understand how this can be a useful tool to middle-class teachers with middle-class experience, being placed in a low-income school with impoverished students? I have learned from my students. I know which dumpster is the best to get food from. I do not know how to get someone out of jail, but I see them handle it with ease. Intelligence has nothing to do with it, it's the way they have to learn and what they have to learn to fit their culture. What are your ideas, John?
The boy does a great job of being critical but does not contribute anything. Much of this book is back by research. I am not sure what he is adding.
I agree that you can not make generalizations about any group of people. There are many in generational poverty that Payne’s theories do not fit. My great grandfathers were coal miners and farmers as were their sons. All were quite poor. My mom grew up in a house with two bedrooms, and six children. No insulation and an outhouse. Yet education was valued. They didn’t spend their money as soon as they got it, they saved as much as they could, when they could.
I have students that are poor and yet don’t know how to get a gun, or dig food out of a grocery store dumpster. Some of them have parents that very involved in their education. Perhaps Payne is only looking at inner city poverty.
Ruby Payne has helped to teach many of us the hidden rules of the middle class and why as teachers we must understand poverty. I am not sure taking her course or being trained in our district has helped me to figure out why this cycle of poverty continues. I do believe that her teachings offer us useful data to help our students acheive more than if I did not understand. I come from a middle class family and I could not understand the fear of having to move in one day or not have food on my table, but knowing that this is the life of some of my students makes me realize that I am more than just a teacher, I must strive to be a role model.
I am a recently retired principal who worked in a high needs district for many years. Ruby Payne has been studying poverty and the ways children learn for many years. I was fortunate to attend several days of training with Ruby Payne and others from her organization. It was phenominal; life altering and impacted my professional development with my faculty until I retired. The original book-A Framework for Understanding Poverty, is simply that-a framework. Her thoughts are right on, her strategies are truly effective and "research-based" or not, she gets it. I can name many "research-based" (supposedly) programs that are not nearly as effective as Ruby Paye's ideas. Reasearch-based is the new buzz phrase for 'I have a new product to sell and I need to get it on the market quickly'. Reading First was "research-based". What a joke that was, per the 'research'...
Although I think it is hard to generalize a group of people, I find Payne's intentions to be just. I am an eduactor of many students who live in poverty, but have never had to live this way of live myself, I am middle class and have always been middle class. I find the hidden rules to be a window into some of my families lives. Research, in its nature, is not personal and individual-based. It is fact-driven and devried from statistics. There will always be exceptions to the norm when it comes to research.
S. Le Blanc
While intellectuals may suggest that Ruby Payne's work is not grounded in valid research, it is interesting to note that individuals raised in poverty find her work to strike a positive cord within them. Granted there are valid concerns in what her critics have observed, but I find her work to be a tool in regard to gather insight into how to relate with not only individuals in poverty, but those in middle and affluent classes as well. Yes, they are generalities but they do provide a framework in which one can approach various situations in regard to helping students succeed. Her hidden rules are guidelines which carefully used to help you to connect with students. I find her dedication and willingness to help students succeed inspirational and her strength based approach shows an appreciation towards the human spirit which is commendable. Boy hit the nail on the head when he made the following statement; "As a society, we have to realize that people ARE different, and as a society, we need to figure out effective ways to interact with one another. Ruby Payne does not advocate changing the ways in which other people think, behave, or believe-but offers a platform for middle-class Americans to understand the needs of impoverished children." That was her intent and her guidelines offer the first step in terms of developing an understanding of others.
In a world with thousands of caring individuals who understand a great deal about social class, why do school districts feel the need to pay so much money for what is available for free or far less elsewhere? Even if I agreed with everything Ruby Payne said (and I have some very serious concerns about large chunks of it), she's running a very clever business getting wealthy off poverty. It's very hard to avoid concluding that it's a substantial waste of taxpayer resources.
Payne and her critics all make valid points.
I think there is one point all can agree on and that is the knowledge that poverty negatively impacts student learning and therefore schools need to be leaders in eliciting change. The true debate comes in what form that change should take.
I feel that Payne is speaking directly from her experiences, the information she shares was her reality. I think she would agree that there are all spectrums of people, and that there is certainly a continuum to all socioeconomic backgrounds. She has focused her research to display some common behaviors among the classes. Her findings have been very helpful for me to put myself into the shoes of people in poverty. Understanding is essential in order to take appropriate steps toward change or effective intervention with studetns. I feel that the works of Payne help with this understanding; especially for someone who has no personal experience with poverty. I think that the most important aspect is what is done with the information. Knowing where someone may have come from or what struggles they are facing in their life, can arm you with a sense of empathy and understanding. As long as we treat each student with respect, value, and honor, while offering them a rigorous curriculum with careful consideration to their individual situation we can’t go wrong. The world is a very diverse place and our approach to education needs to reflect that uniqueness.
The boy in this video is very critical. He takes a lot of liberties in quoting from Ruby Payne's book. If you take all of those snipits and put them together, it sounds racist and discriminatory. If you read the coments in the context in which they are written and look at the explanations that she gives for them and what she means by them, you get a completely different context. I think that Ruby Payne is very clear in her book that she does not think families in poverty are for the most part lazy, not intelligent or not hard working. She paints a picture that is quite the opposite actually. She seems to have a lot of respect for those in poverty and wants to share what she has learned so others will have a better understanding and not a feeling of pity for families in poverty.
My commenet to the fourteen year old boy is, come up with a better way of reachng diverse populations of students than Ruby Payne, then you can dis her!
One thing the boy in the video and other doubters may want to consider: Is there any part of Payne's book that made sense? Simply being disrespectful, condescending and disgusted is not going to help or shed light on any topic. By reading and listening to various authorities on the subject,then synthesizing the information to make it your own, would have more impact when trying to get a point across. Usually there is something to gain even from the person or source you trust the least.
After reading A Framework for Understanding Poverty by Payne I was left with mixed emotions. I was energized by Payne’s ability to describe several of my students and provide explanation for their behavior but I also felt angered by her stereotypical views of the classes much like the boy on the video. Payne’s book could be seen as a useful tool for educators because of its abundance of practical, easy to use strategies. It is something a teacher could read today and implement tomorrow. This is critical for teachers who are always striving for resources. However, as usable as Payne’s work is it fails to look at poverty through the larger lens. It sees poverty on an individual level and forgets that our society and culture play a large role in creating poverty. We may be able to provide assistance for the individual living in poverty but until society changes there will forever be people who are unable to meet the standards of the middle and upper class. I do not see the necessity of placing Payne and her critics at odds. Payne’s work addresses poverty on an individual level and her critics often discuss the need to address poverty on a societal level. I believe understanding both theories are critical in making the change to combat poverty.
After reading A Framework for Understanding Poverty by Payne I was left with mixed emotions. I was energized by Payne’s ability to describe several of my students and provide explanation for their behavior but I also felt angered by her stereotypical views of the classes much like the boy on the video. Payne’s book could be seen as a useful tool for educators because of its abundance of practical, easy to use strategies. It is something a teacher could read today and implement tomorrow. This is critical for teachers who are always striving for resources. However, as usable as Payne’s work is it fails to look at poverty through the larger lens. It sees poverty on an individual level and forgets that our society and culture play a large role in creating poverty. We may be able to provide assistance for the individual living in poverty but until society changes there will forever be people who are unable to meet the standards of the middle and upper class. I do not see the necessity of placing Payne and her critics at odds. Payne’s work addresses poverty on an individual level and her critics often discuss the need to address poverty on a societal level. I believe understanding both theories are critical in making the change to combat poverty.
Mrs. Brink,
I could not agree more! Thank you for posting this. I too read the book with the mindset that what Payne was saying did not apply to every person or child from poverty. I felt her book did a great job of providing situations that I see every day at school and gave me ideas on how to approach those situations in a different way. Her chapter on discipline especially gave me a new set of eyes with which to view some of the problems that arise in my school and why they may be happening. I too feel I was able to benefit from her suggestions. These suggestions will provide me with a starting point for discussions I will be having with other staff in my building.
While people have lived in poverty or been impacted through working with students or families living in poverty, it is essential to remember that each individual can have their own thoughts and opinions about the topic. Ruby Payne’s book helps to acknowledge that there are three different socioeconomic classes and the hidden rules amongst them. Everybody is different and I don’t feel that she was stereotyping or classifying groups of people, but more educating on challenges that people could face living in poverty. Having an understanding of how hidden rules can affect student’s education socially and academically, can help educators become a support system for each student and their families. Ruby Payne’s book helps educators and other professionals reflect on their thinking about the socioeconomic classes and if they are being supportive to all students. Her critics do have merit in challenging her research. Research should be challenged so that all areas can be looked at and individuals can make their own decisions on who they support. More importantly, the next step should be to determine how to make the necessary changes to make sure that all students are successful.
I think the real issue here is classism and that many of our schools operate in a manner that caters to the needs of the white middle class culture at the expense of those from oppressed populations and poverty. The reality is that there are significant disparities in the quality of education between students living in poor communities and students living in affluent communities, such as, poor students being more likely to attend schools that have less funding, lower teacher salaries, limited computer and internet access, fewer experienced teachers, dirty or inoperative bathrooms, more teacher vacancies and substitute teachers, more teacher not licensed in their subject areas, insufficient and outdated material, and inadequate or nonexistent learning facilities (The Myth of the “Culture of Poverty” Gorski, 2008, p. 35-36).
Although I feel that some of Payne’s critics have merit in their arguments against her approach, I still think that she has something valuable to offer. In particular, I feel that she identifies some good strategies for teachers and other school staff members, such as focusing on building relationships, using discipline to teach appropriate behaviors, and developing more wrap around support systems for students. I also think that she brings to light the important issue of being able to recognize how your own values and beliefs impact how you view others and the “common sense” that you expect others to have. Poverty is a very complex issue and it is a very serious social problem in our society. In order to really be effective in working with students and families living in poverty the approach must include strategies that are focused on the individual, the family, and the community as a whole. I do not believe that this can be accomplished by one person, but rather through the continuous collaborative efforts of all of us that want to create change.
A number of years ago the school district I work in had Ruby Payne speak at an In Service. We all received one of her books "A Framework for Understanding Poverty". After hearing her speak and now again reading her book, I think Ruby Payne really has the goal of getting others (the middle class) to understand individuals that live in poverty. If we can get a better understanding, maybe we can help students in poverty to have success in school, that will hopefully carry over to their life beyond school. Ruby Payne writes from her experiences and this often has more meaning than reading the results of some study that has been done. I don't know that everything that Ruby Payne has written is the answer, but at least she has provided a resource for ideas that can be used within our classrooms. I agree with MB that poverty is a serious problem in our society and that in order to create change it will require the efforts of everyone, including all of us, Ruby Payne, and ALL of her critics. All the research in the world will not solve the problem of poverty, but if I can use one simple strategy that will make a difference for one of my students that is what is important to me. As for the video of the young boy, it is always easy to criticize someone, but more difficult to come up with a solution, which he didn't.
I read Ruby Payne for a graduate class and was so intrigued by it. I had been working in an inner city school for 6 years and was constantly trying to make sense of the thinking and reasoning that my students displayed. After reading more about student from poverty it gave me insight on how to relate to my students. I gained a better understanding and appreciation of what they were bringint to the classroom and this helped me become more tolerable and to try different techniques for teaching and learning so that I could provide my students with an opportunity to feel successful, or maybe just "good" for a day.
After reading Ruby Payne's book, I must agree that it has gotten me to think. . . .really think about the poverty issue. It has made me become a better teacher. I see it every day in the classroom. I agree that Society and our local communities, as a whole, need to address the issue. We cannot blame individuals, or individual families. I also agree with her point that people need formal language register to be successful. All tests, books, job applications, etc are in formal register. Language is important and needs to be an important part of our teaching. I appreciate all of the classroom ideas she shared. Some will work and some won't for me personally. What I don't agree with is her idea that all people in poverty are the same. Every individual has different beliefs, dreams, plans, etc. They cannot be treated the same. Many come from different cultural backgrounds and traditions. That adds another twist into the poverty debate. Many are able to make improvements to their lives through furthering their education, encouraging their children to do well in school etc. People in poverty can make changes. Do they need to know the hidden rules of middle class, and the wealthy? It might help them, however I have seen many family success stories without the teaching of the hidden rules. Why? Where does their motivation come from?
I would also like to add that I agree with previous comments about our school systems teaching to the middle class and above. I am someone who believes you take and use the best from different approaches. I am able to take classroom strategies and implement them from both Payne and Jensen to support my students. Do I need to side with one or the other to help students be successful? Not really. Teaching is all based on the needs of each individual I am working with. They guide my instruction. Having two different positions and suggestions to use in my classroom is great!!
Regarding the comments of the 14-year old boy, I can't help but agree that he brings 14 years of learning, life experiences, and (I may be going out on a limb here...)technologically-aided access to information to bear on his arguments. I was somewhat intrigued by his comment that he has been an agnostic for 9 years. When I was 5 (if I'm doing the math right), my greatest interest in church was whether or not I got to wear my Sunday shoes! My how times have changed! Clues gleaned from the background of his film and his command of language and social consciousness lead me to surmise that he might come from a middle to upper middle class background. I'd be interested to hear what he has to say 30 years down the road. I'm not criticizing him but if there's one thing age has given me, aside from a whole catalog of nasty things no one ever warned me about, it's the realization that things are rarely black and white. Not all people in poverty are having the same experience. There are different degrees of poverty and as many ways of dealing with it as there are families in poverty. In the Dark Ages of my youth, middle class children came to school with not much more preparation than children of poverty (my own observations here...no actual research...). We all kind of came in to a level playing field. In today's world, there is a huge, and ever-tilting slant to the field and children from poverty are all too often at the bottom. In this ever changing world, our children have access to information at the touch of a button that in the not-too-distant past, would have taken days to find out. The stuff of sci-fi kids shows from my childhod has come to pass! This is not to suggest that all people in poverty can never improve their situations or that they all feel a sense of hopelessness. It's true that Payne uses some generalizations, but stereotypes in themselves are not evil. What is wrong is when we bestow stereotypes on people without recognizing that there are exceptions and anomalies all over the place! Generalizations are a necessary tool to help us start identifying patterns and frequencies. Whether or not I agree with Payne, if her comments get me to start looking at my students through a broader lens, does it really matter if her research is exemplary or pure drivel? The bottom line is that we need to recognize that our local shantytowns and nearby ghettos have grown to gargantuan proportions and can no longer be swept under the communities' collective rugs. We need to do something, but what? To me, a logical place to start is the classroom. Knowledge is power and we need to make sure that those in power have the knowledge! We all need to be educated in how to be part of the solution. Love her or hate her, she has gotten me to think about aspects of my students' lives that I may not have considered before. If I can use Payne's book as a catalyst to reshape my own thinking and re-examine what I do in the classroom, then who's to say she's wrong? We no longer teach just content; we teach culture and morals and values. At the very least, she has made me realize that I have the power to effect real change in my students' lives if I am willing to continue to grown and learn more about their world.
The confused dad is just that, and has obviously never published a book, otherwise he might know royalties come after costs, so a $23 dollar book will most likely lend itself to $10 after costs and distribution less returns, etc. She's lucky if she makes a buck twenty five per book. Maybe confused dad should try creating once in a blue moon rather than tearing down out of confusion.
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