tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21843852.post7722632374226762487..comments2024-01-04T05:57:26.735-06:00Comments on Education Policy Blog: Hosted by the Forum on the Future of Public Education: A 14-Year-Old Takes Down Ruby PayneCraig A. Cunninghamhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/18160288758906798678noreply@blogger.comBlogger82125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21843852.post-86731266223551257962017-01-16T16:07:27.941-06:002017-01-16T16:07:27.941-06:00I am somewhat on board with Anonymous above when i...I am somewhat on board with Anonymous above when it comes to the hidden rules. I was brought up in a middle class family so when I started teaching at a socioeconomically low school I was introduced to a lot of issues and predicaments I would never have thought of or even knew existed. I feel as though my parents sheltered me from issues dealing with poverty and even as an adult I felt as though the hidden rules were shocking to me. I sat through a diversity training and the majority of it was focused on Ruby Payne and her hidden rules so for me teaching at a school that had a large amount of students who were below the poverty line it was very helpful to me. Do I agree with all of the hidden rules, no, but I do think that some of them teachers should be aware of if they themselves did not grow up in poverty. I could only imagine how people of poverty feel when they are faced with some of the hidden rules, I feel the same way when I am faced with the hidden rules of the wealthy. Some of the hidden rules are just laughable, but there are some that could really stop someone who is impoverished from moving forward because of embarrassment, ego, pride, and just not the where with all where to go for information. Sheenahttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08314176374719503322noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21843852.post-48355001356046200562016-12-03T12:34:13.759-06:002016-12-03T12:34:13.759-06:00Thank you Bob. I think you nailed it. Ruby Payne i...Thank you Bob. I think you nailed it. Ruby Payne is being criticized because she's telling the truth about the "hidden rules" of class. As an educator I respect her work and agree with her.Anonymoushttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04740404802384995152noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21843852.post-91702183080440668692015-08-25T20:27:36.964-05:002015-08-25T20:27:36.964-05:00Although there are some truths to some of the &quo...Although there are some truths to some of the "hidden rules", it seems as though a lot of the rules were prejudices that Payne has "researched" throughout her years of experience. I appreciate the fact that Payne tried to differentiate between the mentalities of each class, but her claims are not based on any research, just personal bias and opinion. As I read the hidden rules, I seemed to agree with most of them. However, when I listened to the 14-year-old boy read them out loud, the rules seemed ridiculous to me. When I think of some of the kids in my classroom, I can get on board with a few of the rules and I feel as though they are based on observation. On the other hand, there are many rules that don't apply.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21843852.post-14867364220116982102015-08-14T16:56:20.905-05:002015-08-14T16:56:20.905-05:00I find the 14 year old young man's comments ve...I find the 14 year old young man's comments very interesting and agree that he probably did not read the whole book. I think Payne makes generalities, but the discussion needs to start somewhere. Every person is unique and does not follow all generalities of gender or maturity for that matter. Each student I have ever taught has been different than any other, even if I teach identical twins. It is important to discuss barriers and behaviors that limit success. Granted, some of the points may be more of observations, but some generalities are important to explore or at least consider especially the ones that could close the gap. These students need help that does not perpetuate the adversities they face nor enables them. This is a growing problem and generational poverty presents many more issues. All students deserve an education and to be shown respect and dignity. It is a shame that four out of five students today live in poverty in the United States. The United States does not have affordable housing and daycare to help parents get out of poverty and have a decent life. These students have no control over their situation and many have lost all hope. This is where the anger and violence is coming from. Surely we can put our heads together and meet this challenge head on. First we need to have an honest discussion about poverty without biases. Maybe we need a discussion about our biases and bring people that are in poverty or have come out of poverty in the discussion as well. This would help the topic get real very quickly. Then we can begin to tackle the complicated details. I believe Paynes' book helps us look at our beliefs and begin the discussion toward a solution.Lorelei Knoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21843852.post-48244153230257557912015-08-13T20:17:53.312-05:002015-08-13T20:17:53.312-05:00What an interesting video by a 14 year old. I und...What an interesting video by a 14 year old. I understand that Ruby Payne does not have scientific research and data to back up everything that she states in her book, but her observations are very powerful. She never stated that poor people are not smart. I had many “aha!” moments while reading her book: A Framework for Understanding Poverty. As I completed the could you survive quizzes for each class and read the hidden rules in relationships and classes, I could draw on past experiences with students that made more sense. Payne’s observations and stories will help me be able to help and relate more with my low SES students. Unfortunately in my school district the percentage of low SES students is increasing. It is by all means not a huge percentage like many urban districts, but the percentage has more than doubled since I started teaching here almost 20 years ago. I know that every student is they own being, but everyone of my students in the poverty class have some of the traits that Payne describes. I look forward to being able to use her knowledge to be more insightful into their lives. To have more appreciation of how a student of poverty functions outside of the school day can only help me become a better educator. I strive to be a positive role model for my students and after reading this book I am renewed in the fact that it does make a difference for my students. It is important to me to treat every student in my classroom with compassion, respect, and value what they contribute to my room. In my district there are many low SES parents that push for their children to do well in school and they value education. These parents come to parent conferences throughout the school year and ask that they are contacted with any issues that arise with their child in my class. The parents see education as a way out of poverty. Educators, community groups, and local government need to continue to work towards implementing programs to help the impoverished and keep the community sustainable for all economic classes.Tracy Vnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21843852.post-1284566009120667772015-08-12T16:24:28.528-05:002015-08-12T16:24:28.528-05:00 After listening to this fourteen year-old’s YouTu... After listening to this fourteen year-old’s YouTube video, I have come to the conclusion that he did not actually read Payne’s text, but skimmed through it only long enough to read the synopsis, part of the introduction, and some bulleted lists. He did not have any real arguments, only sarcastic comments that came from his misunderstanding Payne’s intentions. Although, the patterns and hidden rules of poverty, middle-class, and wealth that Payne describes in her book are not true for all individuals living in these classes, she never claims that that they are true for everyone. I think what Payne is trying to do is point out possible differences between the three socioeconomic classes that exist. By pointing out these possible, yet common differences, educators coming from middle-class or even wealth can better understand the ways in which their students and the families they work with might think or behave. <br />I don’t believe that Payne is stereotyping anyone from any of the three classes. For example, the fourteen year-old said, in a sarcastic tone, “poor people, instead of using scissors, they use knives”. When Payne included, “I know how to use a knife as scissors” on her quiz titled, “Could You Survive in Poverty?” she was not saying that anyone living in poverty uses scissors instead of a knife. What I think she is trying to say is that individuals who are living in poverty may not have some of the basic items someone living in middle-class or wealth might have and take for granted. As a teacher in a school with over ninety percent of our students living in poverty, I can see why Payne included the knife example on the three-part quiz. Interestingly enough, despite the fourteen year-old’s criticism of this example in the book, I have found this to be very true among the families of my students. Aside from the fact that many of my students come to school without any school supplies, I have many students in my classroom every year who do not have paper, pencils, crayons, snacks, pony-tail holders, chapstick, lotion, yes, scissors, and the list could go one. Payne is not trying to be prejudice, she is merely trying to make a point because often we assume we know what life might be like in classes outside of our own, but in reality, we probably know very little because we grew up and are still living very differently from those in other classes. <br />As an educator, I found this book to very insightful. I am planning on using what I have learned from “A Framework For Understanding Poverty: A Cognitive Approach” to better understand the students that I work with because I know very little about how and why that my students and their families think and how and why they behave in the way that they do. I am not saying that all of our families living in poverty are alike and that I will, therefore, treat them all the same, what I am saying is that I will use this book as a resource when I am trying to understand my students behavior, when I need to develop interventions, when I am communicating with the families of my students, and when I am disciplining my students. I definitely think that this book will help me to better serve the students and families that I work with and I am grateful that I read it now have it to refer back to as needed. Lauranoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21843852.post-63766785202766059462015-08-06T13:40:43.637-05:002015-08-06T13:40:43.637-05:00I agree with the comments of K-6 Educator above, b...I agree with the comments of K-6 Educator above, but in reference to the video, I give this boy credit for having interest in this topic and being passionate about it enough to speak his mind and put it out there for people to see and comment on. This is not exactly a topic you would expect to find a 14-year old boy contemplating. I hope this boy continues to question and dig deeper into issues that he connects with. I also think Ruby Payne has fueled an ongoing discussion about poverty and how to help students living with it. She helps call attention to a national problem that we educators must address. Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21843852.post-44523570072603211202015-08-04T15:06:03.088-05:002015-08-04T15:06:03.088-05:00As a school psychologist in the field of education...As a school psychologist in the field of education, I found Payne’s work intriguing in its descriptions of poverty and the hidden rules among classes. The use of personal narratives and case studies help us to walk the shoes of someone else. While not strident in her use of references and research, there is power in using the anecdotal lenses that she offers in her book. The framework is one way to understand and build greater sensitivity to the factors that play into how people become who they are, given what their experiences have been. While critics examine the questions of research, methodology and references, with good reason, I find her work a solid attempt to turn the spotlight on the issue of poverty and to provide another way of viewing and comprehending it. We, as the consumers, as we learn more about poverty, can critically examine it for its content, its merits and its flaws. K-6 Educatorhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04235809999048043139noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21843852.post-81197351454876296262015-08-04T15:01:54.415-05:002015-08-04T15:01:54.415-05:00As a school psychologist in the field of education...As a school psychologist in the field of education, I found Payne’s work intriguing in its descriptions of poverty and the hidden rules among classes. The use of personal narratives and case studies help us to walk the shoes of someone else. While not strident in her use of references and research, there is power in using the anecdotal lenses that she offers in her book. The framework is one way to understand and build greater sensitivity to the factors that play into how people become who they are, given what their experiences have been. While critics examine the questions of research, methodology and references, with good reason, I find her work a solid attempt to turn the spotlight on the issue of poverty and to provide another way of viewing and comprehending it. We, as the consumers, as we learn more about poverty, can critically examine it for its content, its merits and its flaws. Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21843852.post-47613903764619772132015-07-02T19:51:30.486-05:002015-07-02T19:51:30.486-05:00I recently read Ruby Payne's book, "A Fra...I recently read Ruby Payne's book, "A Framework for Understanding Poverty" and although I don't feel her book solves all of the problems that poverty brings, I do think she has some very valid points. As an educator, I have seen students from poverty exhibit many of the behaviors that Payne references. While there is no "one size fits all" answer to solving these educational issues, I do feel Payne offers solid reasons for many of their behaviors as well as practical ways for educators and the community to help break the cycle. <br /><br />Peggynoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21843852.post-83626342737746328602015-04-03T21:57:34.490-05:002015-04-03T21:57:34.490-05:00I do not agree with this 14 year old boy's opi...I do not agree with this 14 year old boy's opinion, but also think much of what he is saying is based on a lack of understanding, life experience and maturity. After teaching for 15 years in a small town with a high poverty rate, reading "A Framework for Understanding Poverty" was like a breath of fresh air. Finally something that made sense of the behaviors and attitudes I was seeing year after year. No, I do not believe you can fit every person into a cookie cutter mold and say every detail applies to every person in each class, but it gives a framework just as the title indicates. I teach in a small school and know the families and their histories, but struggled to understand why certain patterns seem to be impossible to break or escape. This has given me a new perspective and depth of understanding that has helped me interact with students and families in a more effective and positive way.S. Pilcherhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/13598235077079522949noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21843852.post-18308602243449666382015-03-25T10:57:58.073-05:002015-03-25T10:57:58.073-05:00I have taught for 12 years in a working class comm...I have taught for 12 years in a working class community on the edge of Baltimore City, Maryland. Our school is made up of many different families from a wide range of socio-economic standings but 75% of them qualify for free or reduced lunches by the government. I can not tell you which of my students are "poor" because I would never ask that question. That is the real underlying issue here, because my students do not come to my room with POOR stamped on their forehead . Is Payne stereotyping based on her experiences and some minor data collecting? Yes. But we all stereotype to some degree. It is based on our experiences. So if you read her work from that angle, you might be offended by her words. <br />I found Payne's book to be helpful in understanding some of the behaviors and attitudes of my students. Does that define them as people? NO. As the title states, it gives me a "framework" of understanding the children that walk into my class and what they might need from me in order to succeed. <br />Too often we look to DATA to explain everything that happens in our schools when what we really need is to know the stories of our students. Schools can not be treated as factories where we are spitting out products. We can not read her work and say things are black or white, "If this than that," type of logic. Teaching involves a lot of GRAY areas. I read Payne with an open mind and NOT as an explanation on how to "fix" my unsuccessful students. Sometimes kids are just plain lazy, or parents are just plain clueless, or the teacher is out of touch with reality...and all of these things could be happening in a middle class school and producing unsuccessful students. My brother is a perfect example. Middle class family, educated parents, best high school in the county, but he was lazy and stubborn about Math. He didn't want to show his work, he just wrote down the answers. Math teachers thought he was cheating somehow, and his stubbornness got him many poor grades in Math. <br />I think this 14 year olds view about this book has its merits, but he is looking at it through a very small lens. He needs more experience in life in general to see the bigger picture.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21843852.post-67277711486208012092015-02-15T16:26:46.719-06:002015-02-15T16:26:46.719-06:00I am a kindergarten teacher in a relatively poor r...I am a kindergarten teacher in a relatively poor rural school district. I have taught in this district for 16 years and have had many encounters with children that come from a low socio-economic-status. In reading Payne’s “A Framework for Understanding Poverty,” I had a lot of “wow” moments. Payne raised my awareness and helped me better understand what I could be doing to help my students and their families to become more successful. Payne has many critics. Although their beliefs have merit, I believe Payne was trying to help educators understand how their low SES students live. She gave practical advice and strategies based on her classroom experiences. I look at the critics comments, her book was written in one week, she is paid thousands of dollars to do workshops, her research is inaccurate etc., I cannot dispute these findings however I feel Payne was successful in providing a “framework” for educators, administrators and community workers as to the problems our students and their families are presented due to their SES. The “hidden rules” discussed in her book are very close to what I have observed in my classroom.Jennifernoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21843852.post-29759704518551077942015-02-01T21:20:53.768-06:002015-02-01T21:20:53.768-06:00I admire the fact that this 14 year old boy is rea...I admire the fact that this 14 year old boy is reading Ruby Payne and using critical thinking skills.Carriehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/05419785150344638093noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21843852.post-38072822633518058452015-02-01T21:19:03.312-06:002015-02-01T21:19:03.312-06:00I admire the fact that a 14 year old boy is readin...I admire the fact that a 14 year old boy is reading Ruby Payne's book and is thinking critically it. Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21843852.post-75178414865429426122015-02-01T21:15:10.871-06:002015-02-01T21:15:10.871-06:00I think this 14 year old has great critical thinki...I think this 14 year old has great critical thinking skills and I think it is great that he is spending his time analyzing Ruby Payne and reading her book. After reading Ruby Payne's book, "A Framework for Understanding Poverty" i would hope that those that read it , use it is a guide, a place to start, and used as a resource rather than being an absolute. I feel as though this boy was using a black and white or "all of nothing" thinking when he described what he learned from the book. Of course I have seen many students in poverty display some of the behaviors Ruby Payne mentions in the book but I have also seen these same behaviors in children that come from upper-middle class families. This is a guide, a resource and helpful when trying to learn the hidden rules of others (that may or may not come from the same SES as we did). It is a helpful framework to understand when working with all students, especially those that are different than us. I hope those that are reading this book understand that not all people in poverty act in certain ways and not all wealthy people act in other ways. In my opinion, these are generalizations and we (educators) know that we need to get to know each of our students and each of their families in order to truly understand their students.student996noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21843852.post-75936455708874334312014-08-04T15:51:52.107-05:002014-08-04T15:51:52.107-05:00I have read Ruby Payne's A Framework for Under...I have read Ruby Payne's A Framework for Understanding Poverty and watched this young man's video. I support the young man's view by agreeing that there is no hard data to support the claims in the book and that it is very stereotypical in its portrayal of the classes. However, if the book is viewed as Payne's personal ideas/opinions/theories, it does make me stop to examine my own ideas and maybe tryout a strategy listed in the book. I can't embrace her theory as a whole because of to many generalizations.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21843852.post-81129977943077755862014-07-24T11:07:14.731-05:002014-07-24T11:07:14.731-05:00I completely agree with the last post. I teach in...I completely agree with the last post. I teach in a high school with many students living at or near poverty. After reading Payne's text, I found it to be eye-opening. She has spent her life studying families living in generational poverty, and she is trying to help educators, community members, etc. to understand these people. This book was eye-opening for me as well, especially after taking the three-part quiz about poverty, middle and upper classes. It allows the reader to really think about the hidden rules of poverty and what those families go through on a daily basis. <br /> I completely disagree with the video of the 14 year old kid mocking Payne. He clearly lives in a home that can afford a computer and webcam, so what does he know about poverty? He should not put down someone's years of hard work when he does not have anything else to contribute.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21843852.post-7437663746807350012014-06-15T18:55:19.239-05:002014-06-15T18:55:19.239-05:00I have been teaching in a high poverty school for ...I have been teaching in a high poverty school for the last four years. It is sad to see what some of these families have to go through daily. I completely disagree with the last post that "poor people have themselves to blame...and if they only learned to talk like me, they would succeed." There were times in my life that we lived at or close to poverty. The way one talks and the uncontrollable situations that occur (death, unemployment, layoffs, medical, etc.) can all contribute to poverty. Why should one "blame" themselves? My family continued to "fight" and do what we had to to survive. Yes we knew which church was giving out food and even which stores through out food and dumpster dived. These events shaped and molded me. Language is not the solution, it is only part of the problem. I would not change a part of my childhood because it made me the man I am today. <br /><br />It was a good exerciser to do the quiz for the hidden rules. It helped understand what some of the challenges are for the poor. When reflecting on my students and their families, it amazes me what they truly are capable of doing. Most have adapted to their environment and have learned how to survive. Anonymoushttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01813715208750362800noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21843852.post-66336223223908045292014-04-23T09:24:21.823-05:002014-04-23T09:24:21.823-05:00Let's summarize the responses here.
I am a mi...Let's summarize the responses here.<br /><br />I am a middle class person and this book speaks to me. Poor people have themselves to blame for their own situations and if they only learned to talk like me, they would succeed. This book changed how I view the poor - now I know their "hidden rules." Racism and structural poverty do not exist. Inequality is not a problem is this country. This book changed my life.<br /><br />The end.<br /><br />If only it were that simple.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21843852.post-53382015990989206892014-04-05T10:07:14.880-05:002014-04-05T10:07:14.880-05:00Teachers complain and complain about policies, cur...Teachers complain and complain about policies, curriculum, and laws that are put into place by people who have never stepped foot into a classroom. Ruby Payne has come up with this theory based on the years she spent observing her OWN classroom. While it may seem stereotypical and mean at times, it is life. I believe that while not every student, parent, etc fit into this mold Ruby Payne's book points out a lot that can educate and help me. I come from a middle class family and have almost finished my first year teaching in a high poverty school on a reservation. I was completely taken back at the things my students go through or the tragic things that happen here. It was even more strange that they are not as upset as I. It is just a way of life for them. I don't think that Ruby Payne is trying to stereotype anyone but sometimes the hard things have to be said so change can happen. This book has helped me as an educator be more aware of the "hidden" rules to build a relationship with these students and to understand more of where they come from. Anonymoushttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07916584530389889493noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21843852.post-16510115739022911592013-11-23T10:10:01.463-06:002013-11-23T10:10:01.463-06:00I agree with those who have mixed views about Ruby...I agree with those who have mixed views about Ruby Paynes's approach to poverty. I do like Payne's additive model that focuses on assisting individuals using a community wide approach that brings people together to solve problems. To me, this goes along with Paul Gorski's position on poverty that our system is failing people in poverty with inequalities to access of basic rights and resources. Where Payne's approach falls apart for me is when she blames the person in poverty and makes it their responsibility or choice to change. This is her deficit model which I feel perpetuates stereotypes and learned helplessness. As an educator, I did appreciate being made more aware of the hidden rules between the classes, especially since our schools operate from middle class norms. I agree both teachers and students in poverty need to learn from each other's experiences and situations. I all comes down to forming and building relationships and having empathy for one another. I agree that many students who reach their hopes and dreams have had a significant and positive teacher in their lives. I think this is why many of us are teachers!! Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21843852.post-28470181042807806962013-11-07T20:49:01.364-06:002013-11-07T20:49:01.364-06:00After reading Payne's, A Framework for Unders...After reading Payne's, A Framework for Understanding Poverty, I have a better understanding of the hidden rules of poverty. Many times teachers are of the middle class and feel that it is the mission to "make a difference to the life of a child that has a tough life." I believe it is more important to understand and support our students (all of them). I now have some tools that I can take into my classroom to help me meet the needs of my students. I look forward to taking some of Payne's ideas with me.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21843852.post-82521229061464542302013-09-29T17:47:41.980-05:002013-09-29T17:47:41.980-05:00I totally agree with"Anonymous" from Jul...I totally agree with"Anonymous" from July 13th. Ruby Payne's work is definitive in that it helps people entrenched in the Middle Class to understand the Hidden Rules of Poverty. The rules are not meant to denigrate, they are simply to help understand ("Seek to understand, not simply to be understood") Also, they are a reference for someone in the Poverty Class who would seek to understand the Hidden Rules of the Middle Class. Ruby Payne's work will help me be more intuitive and insightful as I deal with my precious low SES students in my high school. A truly invaluable work!Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21843852.post-35951959966762044642013-08-23T13:51:13.365-05:002013-08-23T13:51:13.365-05:00I typically am not a fan or supporter of generaliz...I typically am not a fan or supporter of generalizations, but I find Ruby Payne's text to offer information that, if taken as an individual's opinion, can provide ideas an tools to understand a way of life for some people. I am and always have been a member of the middle class, but I work as a speech clinician in a community with a high population of low income families, in a school with a high percentage of students receiving free or reduced lunches. I find the hidden rules to be a window into some of my families lives. There will always be differences among groups of people, no two individuals are the same. My main objection to Payne's A Framework for Understanding Poverty would be that it comes across as if all families living in poverty have the same hidden rules. Perhaps if it were clearly stated that this is an option, an idea, and one way of understanding some parts of life for impoverished people, her text would be better embraced. Anonymoushttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07486917791700182367noreply@blogger.com